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	<title>Comments on: The Problem With Photographers Who Conceive a Picture First, Then Construct It &#8212; According to Tod Papageorge</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/</link>
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		<title>By: K-I-S-S-I-N-G&#8230; : Old Sweet Song</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-29316</link>
		<dc:creator>K-I-S-S-I-N-G&#8230; : Old Sweet Song</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] {via} [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] {via} [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Connor</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2304</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Connor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2304</guid>
		<description>Great discussion. To me it&#039;s just silly to try to put value judgments on someone&#039;s working methods. Like everyone eIse I have my opinions &amp; preferences but I would never say staged or found is truer,better, more authentic, worth more, etc.  I do however find it troubling that critical or curatorial fashion seems to feel the need to choose between the styles &amp; to do so more or less en masse. The Papageorge show &amp; some others recently (plus all this blogging) may signal the beginning of a change, but for some time now the main current has been large format, heavily produced, staged and/or extensively photoshopped pictures displayed as very large prints.The kind of pictures Papageorge makes have somehow acquired the whiff of &quot;old fashioned&quot; or somehow passe, although plenty of photographers of all ages are still working in that style. It&#039;s not necessary to attack set up photographs to say that a lot of fine work is being overlooked.

The other thing: Shane, I noticed you subtitled your post &quot;the night of the hunter.&quot; I don&#039;t think you were referring to the great James Agee film with Robert Mitchum, but maybe you were. Anyway, I was thinking about that word hunter &amp; the whole idea of going out alone into the crazy &amp; largely uncooperative world &amp; trying to bring back something poetic &amp; marvelous. Some people are suited to that -- the solitude, the uncertainty, the trying to capture a mini-second of control or maybe just luck in an uncontrollable world. They are not -- or don&#039;t feel they are -- suited to collaboration, planning, making a big deal. Then  too they might not have the time or money. Again, it&#039;s not necessary to attack Crewsdon or any of the others to say that the more improvisational found-moment form calls for great discipline &amp; skill &amp; can  embody the very highest aspirations.   I think the photography establishment tends to ignore it because it&#039;s so seemingly easy to do &amp; now everybody has a point &amp; shoot. It&#039;s like haiku. Everybody writes it. But go &amp; take a look at the haiku of Basho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion. To me it&#8217;s just silly to try to put value judgments on someone&#8217;s working methods. Like everyone eIse I have my opinions &amp; preferences but I would never say staged or found is truer,better, more authentic, worth more, etc.  I do however find it troubling that critical or curatorial fashion seems to feel the need to choose between the styles &amp; to do so more or less en masse. The Papageorge show &amp; some others recently (plus all this blogging) may signal the beginning of a change, but for some time now the main current has been large format, heavily produced, staged and/or extensively photoshopped pictures displayed as very large prints.The kind of pictures Papageorge makes have somehow acquired the whiff of &#8220;old fashioned&#8221; or somehow passe, although plenty of photographers of all ages are still working in that style. It&#8217;s not necessary to attack set up photographs to say that a lot of fine work is being overlooked.</p>
<p>The other thing: Shane, I noticed you subtitled your post &#8220;the night of the hunter.&#8221; I don&#8217;t think you were referring to the great James Agee film with Robert Mitchum, but maybe you were. Anyway, I was thinking about that word hunter &amp; the whole idea of going out alone into the crazy &amp; largely uncooperative world &amp; trying to bring back something poetic &amp; marvelous. Some people are suited to that &#8212; the solitude, the uncertainty, the trying to capture a mini-second of control or maybe just luck in an uncontrollable world. They are not &#8212; or don&#8217;t feel they are &#8212; suited to collaboration, planning, making a big deal. Then  too they might not have the time or money. Again, it&#8217;s not necessary to attack Crewsdon or any of the others to say that the more improvisational found-moment form calls for great discipline &amp; skill &amp; can  embody the very highest aspirations.   I think the photography establishment tends to ignore it because it&#8217;s so seemingly easy to do &amp; now everybody has a point &amp; shoot. It&#8217;s like haiku. Everybody writes it. But go &amp; take a look at the haiku of Basho.</p>
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		<title>By: Nolan Smock</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2267</link>
		<dc:creator>Nolan Smock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2267</guid>
		<description>Boo to zoos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boo to zoos.</p>
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		<title>By: Svein-Frode</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2248</link>
		<dc:creator>Svein-Frode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2248</guid>
		<description>While I agree with Colberg that authenticity alone is a bad criterion for evaluating photography, it is and should be part of the equation. I find it impossible to find good arguments why capturing a scene at the &quot;decisive moment&quot; isn&#039;t adding a sense of uniqueness to a photograph. To use an analogy: What would one value higher? Encountering a tiger in the wild, or seeing it in a cage in some zoo? But then again, all moments might be decisive but not interesting to photograph. Staged photography will often have the upper hand in terms of aesthetical qualities since it to a larger degree is under the control of the photographer. What portrait photographer would leave the studio to run around his subject for a day with his Leica, hoping to capture a nice portrait?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with Colberg that authenticity alone is a bad criterion for evaluating photography, it is and should be part of the equation. I find it impossible to find good arguments why capturing a scene at the &#8220;decisive moment&#8221; isn&#8217;t adding a sense of uniqueness to a photograph. To use an analogy: What would one value higher? Encountering a tiger in the wild, or seeing it in a cage in some zoo? But then again, all moments might be decisive but not interesting to photograph. Staged photography will often have the upper hand in terms of aesthetical qualities since it to a larger degree is under the control of the photographer. What portrait photographer would leave the studio to run around his subject for a day with his Leica, hoping to capture a nice portrait?</p>
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		<title>By: SHANE LAVALETTE / JOURNAL &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Content of the Imagination and That of the Real World, Continued</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2238</link>
		<dc:creator>SHANE LAVALETTE / JOURNAL &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Content of the Imagination and That of the Real World, Continued</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2238</guid>
		<description>[...] it to Mr. Colberg to break the discussion down for us. In light of the questions I hoped to ask about the value of staged photographs and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it to Mr. Colberg to break the discussion down for us. In light of the questions I hoped to ask about the value of staged photographs and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Svein-Frode</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2235</link>
		<dc:creator>Svein-Frode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2235</guid>
		<description>Horton, I think your observation is right on the money! Watching &quot;War Photographer&quot; and &quot;Harrison&#039;s Flowers&quot; is and should be two copletely different experiences. That isn&#039;t to say that the documentary &quot;War Photographer&quot; is more moving just beacuse we know it is &quot;for real&quot;, but it does have a profound impact on how we experience the film. 

Just as you have to work very hard to impress certain people with creating works of fictional photography, you have to take very careful steps when making documentary photography. If you are caught &quot;faking reality&quot; it will always devaluate the photograph - no matter the aesthetical qualities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Horton, I think your observation is right on the money! Watching &#8220;War Photographer&#8221; and &#8220;Harrison&#8217;s Flowers&#8221; is and should be two copletely different experiences. That isn&#8217;t to say that the documentary &#8220;War Photographer&#8221; is more moving just beacuse we know it is &#8220;for real&#8221;, but it does have a profound impact on how we experience the film. </p>
<p>Just as you have to work very hard to impress certain people with creating works of fictional photography, you have to take very careful steps when making documentary photography. If you are caught &#8220;faking reality&#8221; it will always devaluate the photograph &#8211; no matter the aesthetical qualities.</p>
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		<title>By: Horton</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2233</link>
		<dc:creator>Horton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2233</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny that this debate is always raging in photography. Would anybody be so vehement about the documentary film being exponentially more moving then a fiction film? I doubt it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny that this debate is always raging in photography. Would anybody be so vehement about the documentary film being exponentially more moving then a fiction film? I doubt it.</p>
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		<title>By: Svein-Frode</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2231</link>
		<dc:creator>Svein-Frode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2231</guid>
		<description>Interestingly I am just writing an essay about documentary vs. fictional photography (to use only two terms to separate the two). It was sparked by the death of John Szarkowski the other day, which we all know was so influential in elevating photography from a technical form of documenting the real world to works of art. 

I think by no means it is insignificant to separate photography into two camps. The one that is documenting reality (to the degree that such a thing is possible) and the other that is creating works of fiction (depicting a mental reality), rather than a physical one. Staged photography is fiction, or a performance if you will. 

Photography is a technology that can be applied both to art and science. While on a conceptual level everything might be claimed to be real or unreal, any meaningful way of communication has to go beyond playing with words. 

Photography is what photography does. Of course we change our view and understanding of images once we know how they were made. That is the whole thing isn&#039;t it? Knowledge of photography is the key to crating and understanding photography.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly I am just writing an essay about documentary vs. fictional photography (to use only two terms to separate the two). It was sparked by the death of John Szarkowski the other day, which we all know was so influential in elevating photography from a technical form of documenting the real world to works of art. </p>
<p>I think by no means it is insignificant to separate photography into two camps. The one that is documenting reality (to the degree that such a thing is possible) and the other that is creating works of fiction (depicting a mental reality), rather than a physical one. Staged photography is fiction, or a performance if you will. </p>
<p>Photography is a technology that can be applied both to art and science. While on a conceptual level everything might be claimed to be real or unreal, any meaningful way of communication has to go beyond playing with words. </p>
<p>Photography is what photography does. Of course we change our view and understanding of images once we know how they were made. That is the whole thing isn&#8217;t it? Knowledge of photography is the key to crating and understanding photography.</p>
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		<title>By: Michal Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2229</link>
		<dc:creator>Michal Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2229</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;there‚Äôs a failure to understand how much richer in surprise and creative possibility the world is for photographers in comparison to their imagination.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Nolan Smock</title>
		<link>http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/comment-page-1/#comment-2225</link>
		<dc:creator>Nolan Smock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shanelavalette.com/journal/2007/07/10/the-problem-with-photographers-who-conceive-a-picture-first-then-construct-it-according-to-tod-papageorge/#comment-2225</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I have no real argument against so-called set-up photography, at least as a process. The fact that I‚Äôve had many successful students doing it in different ways I think makes my case. I also think that the reason they‚Äôve felt free enough to work in this way at Yale is because I profoundly believe in‚Äîand teach‚Äîthe proposition that photography is inherently a fiction-making process. Don‚Äôt speak to me of the document; I don‚Äôt really believe in it, particularly now. A picture‚Äôs not the world, but a new thing.</p>
<p>That said‚Äîtoo briefly‚Äîmy argument against the set-up picture is that it leaves the matter of content to the IMAGINATION of the photographer, a faculty that, in my experience, is generally deficient compared to the mad swirling possibilities that our dear common world kicks up at us on a regular basis. That‚Äôs all. Remember, T. S. Eliot made the clear, brutal distinction between the art that floods us with the ‚Äúaura‚Äù of experience, and the art that ‚Äòpresents‚Äô the experience itself. ANY artist, I feel, must contend seriously with the question of which side of that distinction he or she is going to bet on in their work. Obviously, I‚Äôm with Eliot‚Äîand Homer‚Äîin this, believing that the mind-constructed photograph almost necessarily leads to a form of illustration, the very epitome of aura-art.&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8211; Papageorge, via <a href="http://alecsoth.com/blog/2007/07/12/papageorge-interview/" rel="nofollow">Alec Soth&#8217;s recent interview.</a></p>
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